Episode 111: Anti-Racism in Business: Conversations with HR Conversationalist Shereen Daniels
Want to know how to dismantle systemic racism in the workplace?
Today we are spilling ALL the beans on how to advance racial equity at work. In this insightful conversation, Erin & Shereen discuss making space for when you are called out and how to analyze your own fear to find solutions. This ultimately allows you to grow, unlearn, and be the best individual you can be.
About Shereen Daniels: An advocate for anti-racism in business, Shereen is Founder + Managing Director of HR rewired and Chair of the African Diaspora Economic Inclusion Foundation. With a mission to unlock over one million global conversations about race by 2025, Shereen’s bespoke diagnostic approach combined with her personable candor supports internationally recognized corporates and household brands as they work towards dismantling systemic racism across their organizational structures. Her story has been featured in Forbes, she was recognized as one of LinkedIn’s Top Voices for 2020 and is the winner of HR Most Influential Thinker 2021.
Enjoy this conversation with the incredible, Shereen Daniels.
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Connect with Erin Diehl:
Erin Diehl is the founder and Chief “Yes, And” officer of improve it! and host of the improve it! Podcast. She’s a performer, facilitator and professional risk-taker who lives by the mantra, “get comfortable with the uncomfortable.” Through a series of unrelated dares, Erin has created improve it!, a unique professional development company that pushes others to laugh, learn and grow. Her work with clients such as United Airlines, PepsiCo, Groupon, Deloitte, Motorola, Walgreens, and The Obama Foundation earned her the 2014 Chicago RedEye Big Idea Award and has nominated her for the 2015-2019 Chicago Innovations Award.
This graduate from Clemson University is a former experiential marketing and recruiting professional as well as a veteran improviser from the top improvisational training programs in Chicago, including The Second City, i.O. Theater, and The Annoyance Theatre.
When she is not playing pretend or facilitating, she enjoys running and beach dates with her husband and son, and their eight-pound toy poodle, BIGG Diehl.
You can follow the failed it! podcast on Instagram @learntoimproveit and facebook, and you can follow Erin personally on Instagram @keepinitrealdiehl here. You can also check out improve it! and how we can help your organization at www.learntoimproveit.com. We can’t wait to connect with you online!
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Episode 111 Transcription
Erin (00:01):
Hello, it's me. And do I have a show for you? If you don't know who me is, hi friends. I'm Erin Diehl, and I am so excited for you to hear this episode with Shereen Daniels. Shereen is improving it all over the world. Now, Shereen is an advocate for anti-racism and business, a founder plus managing director of HR rewired and chair of the African diaspora economic inclusion foundation. Now with a mission to unlock over 1 million global conversations about race by 2025 Shereen's bespoke diagnostic approach combined with her personable candor, which I will contest. She's got great personable candor supports internationally recognized corporate and household brands. As they work towards dismantling systemic racism across their organizational structures. Her story has been featured in Forbes. She was recognized as one of LinkedIn's top voices for 2020 and is the winner of HRs most influential thinker in 2021. Today's show is fire.
Erin (01:11):
She, first of all, we talked, I could have talked to her for two hours. It was so impactful. You're gonna hear about anti-racism in business and her company, HR rewired, helps dismantle systemic racism. It is different from DEI, and she's gonna talk to us about our own power, which is unintended, very powerful. She's also going to talk to us about uncomfortable conversations and being introspective with how you first feel. If you say something wrong at work, and really realizing that advancing racial equity requires you to make space for when people call you out. And then it takes analyzing this fear in order to allow it to have a solution and allow us to grow and unlearn and be the individuals that we are. She's so fun. She's so funny. We talk a lot about how have to be afraid of people who have nothing to lose.
Erin (02:20):
So she really found her voice and how she found that voice and really stepped into her own power. She is a powerful, wonderful, compassionate, and compelling woman who has found her assignment, her it, and I'm so happy. She's here to share that it with us here is the one, the only Shereen Daniels. Are you a leader or change maker inside of your business organization or corporation? Are you looking for new, innovative ways to drive morale through the roof? Are you looking for fun and exciting icebreakers team building exercises and activities that will foster team growth, friendships, loyalty, and completely transform your organization from the inside out? Have you been searching for a fun and unique way to create change instead of the same old, dry, boring leadership books and ice breakers that aren't actually working? Hi, I'm Erin Diehl, business improv, entertainer, failfluencer, and professional zoombie who is ready to help you improve it. My mission in life is to help you develop teams and leaders through play improv and experiential learning. In this podcast, we will deep dive into professional development team building effective communication, networking, presentation, skills, leadership training, how to think more quickly on your feet and everything in between. We have helped everyone from fortune 500 companies to small mom and pop shops transform their business, their leadership, and their people through play. So grab your chicken hat. We are about to have some fun, welcome to improve it. The podcast. Oh my goodness. I am so excited to welcome Shereen Daniels to the improvement podcast. Welcome Shereen.
Shereen (04:33):
Hello, Hello, Hello. Thank you so much for having me.
Erin (04:37):
Oh my God. Well thank you for being here. I feel excited. I've been doing some internet stalking. I'm very pumped to know you now. And we were connected by a previous guest on this show, Rajkumari, who we both feel. We have a connection. You have, you said a spiritual connection too, which I wanna talk about in just a little bit, but I want to get to know you in just a different way. This is a fun game that we play in some of our workshops. It's called five facts. All right. And it has a little, it has a little Diddy that goes on the top. Okay. And I'll do it in just a moment. But after I do it, I want you to give what we call the improve. It fam five facts about yourself that we could not find in your bio in online. Just things that are fun that we don't know that you want us to know. All right. So I'll do the little thing here. It goes. It goes five facts, five facts, five facts, five facts, five facts. Shereen hit me with number one.
Shereen (05:35):
I am a massive fan of paranormal romance novels. To the extent that I always thought my first book would be a romance novel.
Erin (05:44):
Stop. Okay. Two, two.
Shereen (05:47):
I am Michael Jackson's biggest fan.
Erin (05:49):
Three.
Shereen (05:50):
So, oh
Erin (05:51):
Wait. Okay. Keep going with that. Keep going.
Shereen (05:53):
No. Well I'm only gonna say, cause you know that people go, oh yeah. Obvious. No, no, no. This is how, this is how fanatic I was when, before he died, you know, when he was in hospital for a while and remember all those people that were like queuing outside this hospital in LA mm-hmm <affirmative> mm-hmm <affirmative> I actually got time off work to see if I could take a plane to go and do the same thing. But the only problem was my daughter was about three years old at the time. So I couldn't get cover fare to go.
Erin (06:17):
Stop it, Stop it, stop it. I love
Shereen (06:20):
This part of me. Part of me feels ashamed, but you know what? I'm not ashamed. I'm proud. Like I, I am, you know, his biggest fan. So yeah, I, I say that with pride.
Erin (06:29):
Okay. And you know what? I also, you can't beat, you can't beat it. <Laugh> his music pun intended. But I mean, he really is. He's an icon. And I know there's some, there's some things, right. There's a lot of things, but at the end of the day, yeah, he did. He did so much for the music industry. I don't wanna harp on this fact, but I'm really glad I know it because I wish you were there. But I feel like there was something you did in replace of being there. So we're gonna talk about that in a minute. Number three, number three,
Shereen (06:56):
Number three. If I could have an alternative career starting at my age of 41, I would love to train as a DJ.
Erin (07:08):
Stop it now. Okay. Four, four.
Shereen (07:11):
Phantom of the opera is one of my favorite musicals. I know it inside out and back to front.
Erin (07:16):
Love it. Okay. Five.
Shereen (07:19):
Oh God. Can't think. Oh goodness. Oh. You know, throws on the dance floor. I'm not a bad dancer Used to in the club in my younger days. Still, if I could now I would, but I was always that one that was until five, six o'clock in the morning. Just like on the dance floor. I'm not big. So don't really do like that. Yeah. Was the one R B hip name it. That was me living my best life in the,
Erin (07:47):
I love it. What was your go to move? Like if you had one signature move, what was it
Shereen (07:54):
Like can we even say this on the, on your show, but like the sweat drop, My knees. So I haven't got making the stalls anymore, so I can't do that anymore. You know, so everyone can visualize, you know, visualize that move and just know in my younger days, like I could do that in a heartbeat. Just know that
Erin (08:25):
The sweat drop. Okay. Yes. The drop and you know what? I'm here for it. I found a visual and I'm loving it. I'm loving it. Okay. This, this makes me so happy. See, I love this game because these are things I wouldn't know. And now I do, and I have so many, I have so many questions. Also. One of my questions I like to ask people is, okay, if you could do something other than what you're doing, what would you do? And you said, be a DJ, which I think is the coolest thing. Yes.
Shereen (08:49):
And yes I would.
Erin (08:50):
OK. I'm so here for that, I would be a rock star, like, or like I would just be a singer because it's like, you can, music is so powerful. It really is. Yes. Yes. And you, and I use words, we use language, we use our voices to be, I guess, music, but I don't have that tool to sing. Like, I'm just, I can dance as I, I like, I feel like I can dance. All right. We'll say, we'll
Shereen (09:15):
Say yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Me too. Yeah. In, I mean, in my head I'm like Mariah care. Right. But somehow something happens that what comes out is not quite that
Erin (09:26):
I will give you a thousand percent yes. To that as well. I will say my karaoke if I have had a couple glasses of wine, which I have, I do like wine. That's that? I feel like I am like Madonna. I'm just crushing it. But you know, in real life, it's not the same. It's not the same. It's the thing I wanna do. Oh, okay. Well, I love that. You know, our friend, Raj Kumari, you are also a podcast host. You have advancing racial equity 4.0, you're a vlogger. You're awesome. I wanna go back to this. You told me at the beginning that you and Raj Kumari are super spiritual. Tell me, tell me what you mean by that. Cause I met Raj Kamari on this show and I was like, we're friends forever.
Shereen (10:16):
Yes. I think she has that impact on people anyway. But yeah, no. So what, the, the really strange connection that I have with Rajkamari is I shared one of her articles that she wrote about generational trauma and belonging in the workplace. She wrote it for the fast company and I shared it and was just like, listen, everybody read this, you know, on my LinkedIn. And coincidentally, I just so happened to be connected to her. And somebody was like, oh, I wanna introduce you to Rajkamari. And I was like, not Rajkamari. And I was like, not this person, like typing away. And yes, it was the same person. So we came onto this call. There was three of us on this call and all fine, like normal stuff, you know? Oh yeah. We're thinking about doing live or a podcasting together. And you know, and then it got to like the last 10 minutes when we were supposed to be saying goodbye.
Shereen (11:02):
And then I can't remember what I said. I just, I said something and RA Kamari was like, I feel seen. And I was like, no, I feel seen. And then we started on this whole other conversation and basically like we've connected so many times Aaron and we had like, we were gonna do this together. We were gonna do that together. We do, because we just, you know, we've, we've got that chemistry and it's never happened because every time we get together, we always end up talking about stuff that has nothing to do with the earthly plane is what I'm gonna say. And so I, it got to the point when I said to her, listen, we've just gotta take the signals from the universe to say that you and I are not meant to do anything in what I call, like the traditional capacity. We are meant to connect for a much more expansive reason than just what we do as like a day job. But we, and we've kept trying, like, you know, it's been a couple years now. We keep, still keep trying and it still doesn't work, but it works in other areas. So yeah, that's our, that's our connection. Very, very insane. Isn't it? But yeah, that's it,
Erin (12:01):
It's not insane. I actually get it on very many levels. So I love it. And it's so wonderful when you can meet somebody that sort of shares that view. So I wanna do this knowing, knowing that let's set an intention for today's episode, what is one word that you wanna get? Or you wanna give, I should say to our audience today, what's a one word intention that you hope to give to our audience during today's episode ease. Oh, I love that. Oh, okay. Cause I feel that with you, I just love cause you're HR conversationalist. You make the conversation flow. You're, you're leading the way in HR for many people. As you know, our audience is made up of leaders, corporate leaders, HR leaders, people, leaders, and you're leading the way for them to have tough conversations at work. You are an author, you are a podcast host. So I love what I did. A lot of research on you. I, I, I read a lot about the work that you do with anti-racism and equity versus equality. So can we start with that? What do you think? Why do you think leaders need to think about equity? Not equality?
Shereen (13:22):
My short answer is I say, you know, if you ask anybody, how do they feel about racism? Universally will. People will say that's really bad. And if you ask anybody, what do they feel about equality? They will say that's really good. And you know, I believe that everybody should be treated equally. The problem becomes is when we know that not everybody is treated equally for lots of different reasons. And I hone in on, on racism and the impact that has, that has on predominantly black professionals in the business world and in the workplace. So what you end up with people are pro equality, but they are still anti equity because they don't wanna do anything differently to get to equality. So I believe that equality is the destination. Equity is how we get there.
Erin (14:13):
Mm.
Shereen (14:14):
We cannot just become more equal by divine intervention. We have to do things differently. We have to unlearn, we have to relearn, we have to disrupt, we have to interrupt. And so the piece about the equity is from a leadership perspective. What you are doing is you are acknowledging that not everybody's experience in the workplace is equal and you are also acknowledging that for some, their experience is always more favorable because of some of the inherent problems that we have built into the way society is constructed. Particularly if you are on both sides of the Atlantics. So the us and the UK parts of the world, you know, every part of the world is impacted by racism, just different degrees in different, because there are different histories and different context associated with that. And I would also say the, the root cause of all of my work or root foundational pieces of DS and the work that I do this. And
Erin (15:28):
I'm gonna take that in for a minute. I love that. Right. I love that you, that is beautiful. It hits like it. I like when I, when you just said that I have almost like an automatic, like emotional reaction to that. Yeah. Because what I love about your work is that it is so needed. It has been needed for so long. And I am so grateful that you are putting it into the world and I'm so grateful that it exists and you are leading the way, right. I'm also grateful that there's, there's there's conversations that make people feel uncomfortable because we need that uncomfortability to make all feel like they are seen, heard, valued, and like they belong. And the fact that this is your life's work, this is your calling is it's so evident in all that you do. It's, it's just so beautiful, the way that you show up and the way that you're just, like you said, the word ease, right?
Erin (16:39):
Like you have it with ease. And I just think that that is magic. I think it's special. And I think that everyone needs to hear the HR conversationalists and have these conversations. So let me ask you this too, knowing, just knowing that you've got this company, right. HR, we wired you're the managing director. Can you tell us a little bit about HR rewired? And if you could do it in, can we do this? Can we play, can we kind of make it fun? Can we, if you could describe it in three words, what would it be?
Shereen (17:16):
Anti-Racist equitable and kind.
Erin (17:21):
Yes. Oh yes. Okay. Now tell us the full, ver give us a little more, give us a little more, but I love that anti-racist equitable and kind.
Shereen (17:29):
Yeah. So in essence, everyone's like, oh yeah, that sounds really nice, but what do you do? Right. So what we do is we help companies who in their own way, want to dismantle systemic racism, you know? So we are a HR company that specializes in that. That's the only thing that we do. So we don't, you know, we're not a diversity and inclusion company where I like to say, we're, anti-racism, we're probl. <Laugh> right. We're pro you know, we're pro progression. We're pro you know, all of those things and the analogy that I always use when people go, oh yeah. But you know, how is that diversity and inclusion? Cause I get asked that a is to say like years ago, in 2012, I was diagnosed with stage four. Hodgkin's lymph is a long story in terms of like how I was misdiagnosed every possible opportunity.
Shereen (18:17):
But by the time I was diagnosed, my wonderful consult, Dr. Was like, right. We're before we do that, there's some tests that we gotta run. He specializes in hematology. So Hodgkin's lymphoma is cancer of the blood. So it's part of like the leukemia family. If you can, you know, I don't wanna say visualize the cancer, but you know, these are terms that we're used to hearing. So he did lots of different Eva invasive tests basically to try and work out where this cancer was, how far it was, you know, stage five is terminal. So I didn't have a lot of time, you know, before they had to do all of this work. Now, are you always use that analogy because I say to people, you sometimes need a surgeon to go and tackle some of the things that happen in the workplace. You don't need a general practitioner.
Shereen (19:03):
Mm. Right. The general practitioner is the, is the GP that you go to for all Jack of all trades, right. Is your, is your, you know, is the general practitioner. So what I, the reason why I use that analogy is because I say, you know, your traditional approach to diversity and inclusion is a bit like a general practitioner because you are you having to look at many different facets of how people's experience is, is shown and not shown right within the workplace for lots of different reasons. Systemic racism is a very specific problem that needs a very specific approach. It's not to the exclusion of everybody else, but you cannot keep thinking. It's a bit like, you know, you wouldn't go to the dentist with a back pain. Like I always use that. I think I use that in my book because the point is, you know, enough, you don't know what's causing your back pain, but you know enough to know if you go to the dentist and they give you half price root. Now that's not gonna solve your problem.
Erin (19:55):
Nope. Nope. You're gonna get, you're gonna get a half. You're gonna have another happy in there. It's gonna a
Shereen (20:01):
Half. And so, you know, when people say, oh yeah, but you know, I, I, I, I feel uncomfortable. I dunno. I dunno. No, but you know enough to know that some of the places where you are going to get your solutions is not going to solve the issue. And I think the bits that people love or hate me for is my specificity. If that's even a word, like I'm really direct. Yeah. You know, I call it as I see it. And I don't pan to whiteness. I don't pan to discomfort, but my honesty in terms of my own journey. So what people are quite surprised that cuz they think, oh, you know, people who do this work are very preachy or very patronizing and it's a bit like shaking your fingers and this person is racist and that person is racist. Firstly, my argument is, listen, whether you call people racist or not like where do you go from there?
Shereen (20:51):
Okay. Then what like what, what are we gonna do with that? Yep. Okay. So let's, let's do away with all of that. But also we disrespect the seriousness of what racism is because we know that people have lost their lives. Right. We know that people have been unfairly incarcerated. We know that people have lost jobs. We know, we know, we know. So every time that we try and dress it up to make it more palatable, maybe by not using the word racism and maybe talking about inclusion oring or you know, all of those things. Cause it's than saying the word racism, what we do is we disrespect its impact. And we disrespect the people that, you know, I'm a direct descendant of enslaved people. You know, if, if we imagine I go back in time a hundred something years and I'm there looking at my great, great, great grandmother and her great grandparents, what am I gonna say in terms of how I'm trying to ensure that what they went through is never replicated in human history.
Shereen (21:50):
And so anything that I do that tries to soften it because I'm worried about how people might perceive what I say is disrespecting my lineage. It's disrespecting the experiences they have. And it's also disrespecting that the experiences are so many people in the workplace. Right? So, you know, the first thing is, is I always say to people like come with me cuz we're learning together. Like I had to learn, I was complicit in this system for most of my corporate life for 20 years because I didn't wanna say anything. I didn't wanna be the black woman talking about racism. I didn't wanna hear that. I was making everything about race. I, you know, I've got degrees, I've got two degrees. You know, I had a great job. I've got, you know, the, the equivalent of the, the house with the picket fence, even though we don't have a fence and we actually don't have a garden, but that's another story that, so you forget that bit, but you know what I mean?
Shereen (22:39):
Yeah. You know, this whole idea of the material trappings of success in reverse commerce. And so everyone assumes that somehow racism had passed me by. And what I started to realize is we don't understand what it is. And also we get our information from how the media whips everybody into a frenzy. And you know, whether it's displacement theory, you know, this idea that, you know, black people are here to come and annihilate the white race and you know, all of this like awful unhelpful stuff that we hear and it's preying on people's fear. Yes, yes. That's what it's doing. It's paying on people's fear in people's insecurity. And so, you know, one of the, the conscious decisions that I made part way through my journey, Erin, is I am not here to convince anybody that racism exists. That's not what I'm here to do.
Shereen (23:30):
So you'll never see me on TV, on radio, doing podcast interviews where I'm having to debate the existence of racism. My job is to bring people closer to the issue. So the people that care, right, got nothing to do with skin color, nothing to do with, you know, ethnicity, gender, all of these things, people who care and say, right, I'm willing to do the work like Shereen did the work and I'm willing to go on the journey. Like Sheen's going on the journey. I want to do something. I just don't know what to do or how, which is very different to, I have to do something and you've gotta prove to me why.
Erin (24:06):
Yeah. Oh, I love that. So listening to you say all that it's so you learned, you were having to go on this journey. You wanna take people on this journey with you? Can I ask this question? What if somebody listening today is listening, studying, wanting to go on this journey, but they're afraid of using their voice. What would you say?
Shereen (24:35):
I would say that irrespective of how society has tried to shrink us to fit a box for the benefit of a few and its a very elite, let's also be crystal clear. We have to recognize that we have inherent value. Right? I talk about sovereign power and sovereign power basically means that the second you are born, you are valuable. So the value that you have does not come from external validation of individuals. It actually also doesn't come from the validation of people, seeing you as who you are just know there is that inherent power within you because you are born. That's all, that's all the criteria that we need as individuals for our humanity to be recognized. Now we know that society doesn't treat us that way, but it doesn't mean that we can't see ourselves that way. So for me, part of the, the journey that people were witnessing because they saw me show up on video every single day for a hundred days. At one point I know our kid, you not, this is what I did and they see me. They've seen me cry. They've seen, you know, me find something entertaining. I'm very entertaining. I, you, I think you can kinda get that. Like I do meet people. I got that. Get that actually a good, I'm good. I'm actually a good time when
Erin (26:00):
ILU drop on this.
Shereen (26:07):
Also some of the things I'm and way I'm able to speak about this issue and not feel concerned about what people will think. And I do, you know, I have, I've gotta tune out that voice sometimes, but that comes from me recognizing the value within myself. You know, it comes from me thinking to myself, do you know what I volunteered for this assignment and to be here on this earth and to go through the experiences that I went through, that was a choice. So rather than me fight and push against it, I'm just gonna go with it. You know, for the first time in, you know, all of the things that I've done that did not come off the back of a plan, you know, and I'm very future focused. You know, I'm really independent. I'm very self confident, socially awkward with people around that.
Shereen (26:53):
I dunno, but for the first time I did nothing but live day to day. And I just said, I'm gonna talk about something that matters to me. I didn't know how to edit videos. I taught myself how to do that rubbish, but you know, you could still see the videos, which is something. But all these things I did were outside of the confines of HR, outside of the confines of how people had seen me, who'd known me for most of my life and I'm doing things that nobody could imagine, but I'm doing it is because I just sat with my sovereign power and just said, you know, what is the legacy that I want to leave behind? But also how do I want to live now?
Erin (27:30):
I love that.
Shereen (27:31):
Do you know what I mean? And I just, you know, some people go, oh, you have the luxury of that. Yeah, possibly. But I, but I also think somebody once said to me is you have to be very afraid of people who have nothing to lose at the time that I found my voice, I felt like I had nothing to lose because I just thought everything that I had tried for 20 years to avoid happening happened anyway. So like literally I let me just do me. You know, I said to my partner, I'm not gonna work for a year. Cause nobody's gonna hire me or have anything to do with this black woman. That's now gonna spend all her time talking about racism. And my partner said, I've got you.
Erin (28:07):
Gotcha.
Shereen (28:07):
He said, I'll do overtime.
Erin (28:09):
Love it. And I was
Shereen (28:10):
Like, really? And he was like, yeah, just, just go do now. He's very happy when he, my book, all the rest of it, he's very happy. He's very, but you know, that's the, and just, I just allowed myself to be,
Erin (28:24):
I love that. You just, you gave, I love the words that you chose sovereign sovereign power. Right. And I love that. So I wanna, I wanna, I'm taking notes. If you see me here, this is me. I'm always like, ah, I gotta give this back to, to, I gotta give him homework. I gotta give our audience things to take away. One thing I heard you say, which I wanna just touch on is something. I also believe that you were born into this body. You were given this path. You, you chose it. I believe that too. I believe that we were put as souls as spirits into this physical body to come and we have some sort of assignment. Is that what you believe? Is that what you meant by that?
Shereen (29:18):
A hundred percent. I mean, to the extent that like when I'm communing with my cosmic guides and, and ancestors, some of these people, cause I also got told, I need to out ask for help more. Right. So I do my best. I, I also say to them, I go, you see this assignment right? When I come back in my next incarnation, can we just put me in more surroundings please? So I <laugh>, you know, I mean, Aaron I'm like, listen, I'm a C estate kid made good. Right. But you know what, for my next assignment in palace, like I can still make an impact and do for the people. I just don't need to do it from a council estate. Like I I've done that this time round. Yeah. But you know, makes, let's just upgrade a little bit, lemme just level up <laugh> I dunno if that makes any difference, but you know, I try.
Erin (30:11):
Yeah. While, while we're having this conversation, spirit guides, let me just ask this quick question. You
Shereen (30:16):
Know what I mean? I'm still gonna do my duty. I'm still gonna, you know, all the things that I said, I just, cause I do feel like this, this work that I do genuinely will continue in many, many different life forms in many, many different ways. So I'm like, I don't need anybody to question that because there's, and I base that on the ease for one of a better word of which I've just been able to do certain things and not felt that inattention. Yeah. That I felt in my corporate career when I was trying to climb that, that pole of, you know, Ascension to, to power and you kind of get there and you think, oh, this is not <laugh>. This is not what I thought it was gonna be. Right. So yeah. And I just think, right. I'm meant to be doing this work.
Shereen (30:57):
I'm okay with that. And I also know that I, you know, when it's my time to go I did a good job, right? I was, you know, I've been told that, you know, you did good and that's all I need, Erin. I don't need details. I don't need anybody to like, you know, that's all I need. And so because of you have that innate sense of knowing, it enables me to roll with whatever, you know, and not cling so hard to things that I feel like, oh, I really need it. Or this is, you know, oh, this doesn't this person just, I think that's like the bud biggest philosophy of detachment, isn't it. And it's that, that's where true freedom. That's your, the best way that you can show somebody you love them is to let them go. Which basically means that you don't cling to them for your own. So I kind of apply that in my life as well. And just say, well, you know what? If it's meant for me it won't pass me by, you know,
Erin (31:52):
That's it. Oh my God. I love it so much. Well, it's also so interesting that you're the word you chose for this episode was ease. It's come up multiple times. Also. I think when you are in alignment with the assignment that you're given, ease is a natural thing. You don't, like you said, when you're trying to climb that corporate ladder, you're like, this doesn't feel right. This wasn't what I was meant to do. This doesn't feel like where I'm supposed to take my life. This SP this soul, this spirit. And then when you are in alignment, it just comes so naturally and you feel passion and you feel what you're giving isn't work because I can see from, from just these few minutes, and also just seeing all the work that you do online, it just comes out of everything you do. It's a natural thing you want.
Erin (32:46):
That is what you're here to do. And I love that. We call we say on this show, it's your it improve it, get it. But I, I will say that that to me is so special and it's very evident in all that I see. And, and all that, you know, I'm hearing you say, so I wanna ask you this question because I wanna make sure I, our audience gets what they need too, because I love learning about you. And I know they are, but I wanna give them some practical tips. So if there's a leader listening today and they might have a conversation that makes them uncomfortable. So I read this article, which I love that you wrote about racial equity. And you said, recognize that advancing racial equity requires you to acknowledge that you will make space for when other people call you out, ask yourself why this fear exists for you, analyze it, take it apart, find your solution, right?
Shereen (33:50):
Yes.
Erin (33:51):
So let me start there. And then I wanna go into the practicality, but why is asking yourself that question and analyzing why that fear exists for you? Why is that so important?
Shereen (34:04):
Because I think that discomfort, that tension tells you something, that's a language that your body understands, even though your mind hasn't connected the dots yet. And the reason why I always hone in on the importance of introspection in doing this work is because you cannot disrupt systems until you first disrupt yourself. And what I mean by that is we cannot always point the finger and claim. It's somebody else's job to make society fairer, to make workplaces more, genuinely more inclusive, right? Organizations, sentient you, I people. So it is naive. And it's a fallacy to think that you can just fix an organization without doing any work with people, but as a leader, you or as anybody who cares. And when I use the term leadership, just to be clear, I'm not talking about job title. I'm just talking about people who want to demonstrate moral courage and are wanting to put one or steps forward when everybody else is still huddled in a and still deciding or not, whether they're do anything.
Shereen (35:16):
Right. So not who like that always give, when somebody says to me like, oh my goodness, sheen, like, I love what you are doing. How best can I help you? And I always say to them, you know what? The way that you can help me is to spend some time thinking about what you are afraid of when it comes to this, that's the best way you can help me, you know? Yeah. I could tell you to read my book, go read my video and all that good stuff. Now spend some time thinking about what scares you, what are you most afraid of? You know? And I, I, I can honestly share this because like I've shared it about 50 million times, but the crisis point for me that forced me to start speaking my truth and recording the videos wasn't because I woke up and went, oh yeah, I'm gonna talk about racism.
Shereen (36:07):
It was the cognitive dissonance that came from seeing the murder of George Floyd in the video of Amy Cooper in central park. That just made me think all of this internal narrative that, you know, like, you've just gotta run that little bit quicker. You know, I've just gotta mold myself a little bit like this. And, and I just sat there and I thought, where has it gotten me? Right. So all this silence turning the other chin, where has it gotten me? But also where has it got us as a people? Right? So people who share my heritage and when I had my little breakdown about sharing my video on LinkedIn, cuz you know, like LinkedIn is like the professional eye to the world, right? Isn't it. And I, I had to confront my biggest fear and my biggest fear, what I had not realized I hadn't clocked it.
Shereen (36:50):
It wasn't anything that I ever thought about was that if I start speaking my truth, I will be rejected by white people because I'd spent 20 years trying to assimilate, integrate and mold myself into a vision of acceptability to ensure that white people didn't always keep closing the door to me. So even though I'm everyone sees me go, oh my God, you're clearly so confident. And clearly, so this, what I say is that everyone has work to do in regards to addressing racism. It's just very different work. It transcends skin color and ethnicity heritage background, because we have all been, you can't, we can't all be, you know, drinking the same water and breathing in the same air without thinking that it's affecting ourselves. That's a little bit like racism. So you have to consciously go on a detox program, but know that the detox program that you are going on is lifetime's worth of work now to start that detox.
Shereen (37:53):
You know? So, you know, when people do like, you know, those little tablets that you put in the water taste, but it's meant to like detox you liver and all the rest of, oh yeah. The moment of you picking up the bottle of to drink that is the of you confronting your fear. So you cannot drink the bottle of detox water until you've confronted what you are most afraid of. That's like a very visual analogy. Cause I'm, I'm a very visual person, but that's why this work is so important to do. Because if you don't, you will end up perpetuating more harm because you think that there's no work for you to do. And if you think there's no work for you to do, it means you've not acknowledged that you have also been conditioned into a society that values whiteness. Even if you don't see it, that is how society is constructed.
Shereen (38:42):
And there are lots of very obvious and deliberate tools that we can see every single day that shows that correct. So I don't need to prove that to anybody. So the tension that you go that you talked about Erin, which is from a leadership perspective is like, where is that coming from? What am I Mo, what, what could happen to me? If I prioritize my black colleagues, what can happen to me? If I sign off the budget to do X, Y, and Z, what can happen to me? If I say the word racism rather than diversity and inclusion, you know what can happen to me? If I believe that colleague who talks about how they've overtly impacted by and discrimination, scared by believing scared, by giving them space, to tell scared by committing organization, to be antiracist of these things. You have explore. That is the best way that you can help people like who are out here, singing from the rooftops, you know, doing our very best. That's also the best way that you can help your colleagues, your friends, your peers, you know, your, it has to start with you first.
Erin (39:50):
I love that. That analogy. Cause I'm a visual person too. I, I, I was like, yes, I see the tablet, but it's what I'm hearing you say is if you don't take the time before you drink the water, before you put the little detox thing in, if you don't take the time and introspectively, look at yourself and your own fears and what you want this detox to do for you, it's not gonna work. You can drink all of that detox water, all you want, but it's not going to do anything that it's supposed to do because you haven't cleared the blocks in your own space.
Shereen (40:31):
Correct.
Erin (40:32):
That's powerful. That's gonna stick with long time Daniels, yours. That is, that is, that is powerful, powerful stuff. And I think, you know, I've had, this feels like I've had you here for two minutes. I've talked. I could talk to you forever. And I love, we've talked a lot about what I love that you said too, is the, the definition of a leader, somebody who has moral courage. It doesn't mean that you have the title, which I think is fantastic because I say we talk a lot about leadership on the show and it is not a title. It's somebody who's listening to this show today and is experiencing an emotion who wants to help. Who wants to be somebody who makes anti-racism a practice in their organization who shows up authentically, who finds their power. Like you said, who stands in their truth and doesn't want to be silenced. And I think this is so amazing. I've, I've learned so much for you. And I just want one more little nugget of wisdom from sheen. So if you could tell what do I now know the definition that we're using of leadership, which I love. What's one thing that you would tell a leader to stop doing. And what's one thing that you would tell them to start doing.
Shereen (42:01):
I would say, stop burying your head in the sand, thinking that, you know, this call for socially, just workplaces and socially, just societies. It's just a passing fad. It's not gonna go away. And I also want people to understand that if you sit in the pocket of discomfort and resistance and don't move past that, then we will forever see the equivalent of black lives matter. The me too movement, all of these things that happen because people say enough is enough. And I always want to say how many more people need to be killed, need to be ostracized from organizations need to lose their jobs for speaking out, you know, how many more does it take and which person do you want to be that enables people to feel psychologically safe for them to not only be themselves, but also to exist in their sovereignty without having to look to you and people like you to validate their existence.
Shereen (43:03):
You know, at the moment, at this moment in time, that is the responsibility, but also that's the power that a lot of leaders have. And they don't realize that they have their power, their very existence in the way that they operate is about validating and invalid individuals. So is that what you want? So that's my first thing. And what I would love them to start doing is like, start doing the work and, you know, recognize that this is gonna be painful and it's gonna be uncomfortable. But like, what would you like to tell your children or, you know, your nieces and your nephews, you know, your little nits, what would you like to tell them in terms of the role that you played as a leader to create cultures that work for everybody, not just the majority because of the way society is constructed, you know? And I think honing on those honing on those reasons, honing on where that reflection gets you and then practically surround yourself with people who are directionally moving the same way that you want to move, not where you are right now. You know? So yeah, that's, that's so much more I could say, but I think that's probably it now. Do you know what I mean?
Erin (44:22):
Yeah. Surround yourself. I love that too. It's like is if you see people and I'm, I notice that what I love about being a podcast host is I get to surround myself with amazing people who I can learn from and who can bring things to the world that I could not. So I think that right there too, is surround yourself with the people who are doing the work that you wanna be doing and then do the work. Right? So let me ask you one more fun question, which I know this answer, but we say that your, it is that thing that you bring to the world. It's your purpose? It's your, it is your assignment. We touched on this, but tell us what is, she's it?
Shereen (45:09):
My yet my, it is speaking in a way that brings people closer to the issues that impact on people like me. So I do in various different ways. Some of them fun, some of them serious, but yeah, I like to think maybe it's like the vibrational frequency of my voice. Do you know to me, like in my head, yeah. I have no idea <laugh> but in my mind I would love that
Erin (45:33):
The vibrational frequency, I love that. I'm so into that, the vibrational frequency of your voice, which I, let me just tell you, I mean, I'm looking at you, but if I'm look somebody right now sitting in a car and, or I'm like on a walk and I'm listening to this show, I'm like, I, and like, it's been a long time talking to you right now. I don't want it to end, but I'm like, I could just listen to you talk forever. Like I love it. So, and I, I have this really weird nasal twang. I'm like half Southern half Midwestern in the us here. So I'm like, did you ever see the show? The nanny? Do you know the nanny grand? Okay, well I'm like her and like on a farm, you know, cuz she's like a very nasal VO. Anyway, I, this is what I have to work with. But the vibrational frequency of you is, is so high. And I'm so glad we got to experience. And I just tell, tell our audience, if they wanna reach out to you, if they wanna find you where they could buy your book, the name of your book, which we didn't even talk about. All of the things,
Shereen (46:32):
All the things. So you can find me mostly disturbing the peace on LinkedIn. So I do make people clutch their pearls every so often. <Laugh>
Erin (46:43):
I love that. I make people clutch their pearls, clutch,
Shereen (46:47):
Their Lords. She didn't, she didn't just post that. She didn't say yes I did. Yes I did. I did. I did. I
Erin (46:56):
God,
Erin (46:56):
That is the best thing I've heard. I'm really I'm you know, I'm gonna write that one down clutch the
Shereen (47:01):
First yeah. People keep going. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What I'm feeling. Yeah. I just feel like, you know, like people are getting too complacent, so no, this ain't it. So we, we need to it up with your folks. So you can find me on LinkedIn. I also have a newsletter which was really random for two years. I've avoided doing it. This is a LinkedIn newsletter. And I did one edition and had 18,000 people sign up. <Laugh>
Erin (47:24):
Amazing.
Shereen (47:26):
I know. So I was like, maybe I'll just continue doing this. So I've got that. I've got, you can Google me on YouTube. You can Google me on YouTube. You can Google me and find me on YouTube. And my book is called the anti-racist organization, dismantling systemic racism in the workplace. So yeah, it does what it says on the tin. You know what I mean? So there's, there's no pink purples in here. There's no softer fluffy fairy cakes. This is somebody said it's a very easy, quick, long read because like I'm, I'm a woman, a few words, you know what I mean? I like short sentences and a lot full stops. And I'm sure you've guessed are very direct. So, you know, it's it packs a punch, but it's super practical. It's probably the most practical book about dismantling systemic racism you'll ever read. I'm not an academic and this is not an academic textbook. This is a book that you can have in your office and you can go, right. What does she say again? And then you flip to the relevant chapter and all the relevant piece. And there's lots of questions, reflective questions to help you navigate that with your teams and with yourself. So I've done my very best to make it as easy as possible without doing the work for you. So yeah.
Erin (48:36):
Oh my God. All right. Well, we're gonna link all the, thanks. All the Googles, all the LinkedIns, all the books in the show notes here, but I just have to tell you Shane, first of all, I'm so glad Raj Kumar connected us. And I just want to thank you so much for the work you do again for making people feel like they have a place where they belong, where they want to belong, where anti-racism is a common word. And I'm just honored that I had a conversation with the HR conversationalist and I'm glad you shared your it with our audience. So thank you. Keep spreading it all over all over the world.
Shereen (49:16):
I'll keep doing, I'll keep doing my best. And I'm hoping I'll get stateside at some point soon. So yeah, that's, that's like part of the plan, but I dunno when that will be. So for now over the airwaves.
Erin (49:28):
Yes. I love that. Well, I'm here for it. Keep going, keep spreading it all over.
Shereen (49:32):
Thank
Erin (49:33):
Thanks.
Erin (49:42):
Okay. What an episode? What a woman I'm so grateful to have Sharine on this show her, it just radiates from every area of her life. So her it fam is, is so, so, so, so, so important. As she said, anti-racism is not going away. This conversation will continue and continue. And I hope that it does because we wanna make spaces where people feel as if they are seen, heard, valued and it's equitable. So here's what I want you to do after every episode, you know, I'd like to give you tangible homework to take away to implement. Here is your only homework for today. Share today's episode with a leader. I also love Sheen's definition of leaders. It doesn't mean that you have the title senior VP or director. It means that you have moral courage to show up and to do what's right? So take today's episode, send the link to somebody in a text message, share it on your Instagram stories, share it on LinkedIn.
Erin (50:56):
Share this message. This isn't my message. This is Sheen's message. I want you to share this because so many organizations need this work and I want us to continue this conversation. That's all I ask is continue. This conversation love to hear from you what you liked, what you want more of from this show, what we could improve upon pun intended. You can do that by emailing us at info, learn to improve it. Dot com. Sending me a DM on Instagram at keeping it real deal or sending me a DM on LinkedIn. And you know what I'm gonna say? Keep failing, keep improving because the world needs that special, special. It that only you can bring so glad you were here. I'll see you next week. Hey friends, thanks for tuning in to improve it. I am so happy you were along for the ride. If you enjoyed this show, head on over to iTunes to leave us a five star review and subscribe to this show. So you never miss an episode. New episodes drop every Wednesday. Now, if you're really feeling today's show and you've improved it even just a little bit, please take a screenshot and tag me at keeping it real deal on Instagram and share it in your stories. I'll see you next week, but I wanna leave you with this thought, what did you improve today and how will that help your future successful self? Think about it. I am rooting for you and the world needs that special. It that only you can bring see you next time.